Black Fatigue with Mary Frances Winters


Mary Frances Winters, one of the original thought leaders in the diversity field and cross-race conversations, joins me in this conversation on race.


We talk about:

  • How the histories of Black and other people of color are being replaced in the USA
  • How we need to look at race and racism from a systemic point of view and not just look at individual actions
  • The state of the diversity conversation at work


Key topics:

[3:06] Why it’s important to talk about race, and why people are reluctant to talk about it

[4:54] Her new book, “Racial Justice at Work”

[8:25] How we all swim in the water of white supremacy

[10:25] The way history of people from non-dominant groups is being wiped out

Example: Florida banning diversity training, and Don’t say gay bills

[14:53] When will teaching history of slavery be forbidden in public schools

[16:51] The fear that this country is becoming too Black or Brown and will have too much political clout that drives white supremacy

[21:15] The difficulty of discussing the topic of race at work

[23:47] Self-loathing and internalized oppression

[25:16] When Mary Frances was called the N-word at the age of five and the reaction from her parents

[29:02] The real history and current state of diversity, (equity and inclusion) today

[32:02] Why Mary Frances is not a fan of adding more letters to Diversity, Equity and Inclusion

[34:17] How some people who are not qualified are being asked to be diversity leaders just because they belong to a dimension of diversity

Why do some people take on the role without the requisite expertise?

[40:35] What is generational wealth? What is informational wealth?

[46:42] The biggest challenge Mary Frances has seen from white women


Guest Bio

Mary Frances Winters is President and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., a 38-year-old diversity and inclusion consulting firm, and the author of six books, including her best seller, We Can’t Talk about That at Work!: How to Talk about Race, Religion, Politics, and Other Polarizing Topics; and her two latest books, Inclusive Conversations: Fostering Equity, Empathy, and Belonging Across Differences and Black Fatigue: How Racism Erodes the Mind, Body, and Spirit.

Learn More About The Winters Group on their website, here.

Follow Mary-Frances on LinkedIn.

Follow The Winters Group on InstagramLinkedInTwitter, and Facebook.

Host Bio

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker and facilitator and the host of the podcast, “Everyday Conversations on Race for Everyday People.”


Go to and for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)